OP
Vintage Veloce
pro rider
For me the path with the learning is much of the fun. I may ending up ordering a shock for the bike, but now I know much more about what spring rate I would want.
rear spring swap
- Thread starter Vintage Veloce
- Start date
BISavage
champion rider
Exactly, the journey is the part you tell your friends about
I am wondering if removing the shock and greasing the joints makes sense 1x per year, or if the choice in grease has any impact....
I am wondering if removing the shock and greasing the joints makes sense 1x per year, or if the choice in grease has any impact....
OP
Vintage Veloce
pro rider
Pulling the bolts was a pain, not as easy as I had expected. Here in dry San Diego, I'd never do it annually... but if you regularly ride in the rain... well maybe.
I know the belray grease I use claims to be "waterproof"... but I'm betting that is just marketing, isn't all grease waterproof?
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kkmann
contributing rider
I'll add mine here too. This is what I posted on ADV.
Swapped the rear spring last night, quick and easy since I already took the shock off once as I posted above. Looks like Race Tech info was accurate. I set the preload at 11mm (4mm taken up at installation, 7th click on the ramp = 11mm total) as suggested. Static sag around 10mm and rider sag is 45mm, for exactly 30% of the 150 mm of travel. Right on the money. While just pushing down and bouncing on it in the garage, the movement is much smoother/steadier, it doesn't just "stop" like it does with the stock spring when it hits the high end rate. 5818 spring series is a perfect fit.
I'll post my fork spring swap in another thread (or find one if there already is one).
Motion Pro spring compressor = EASY!
New top bolt, went with hex head instead of socket cap (Allen).
Swapped the rear spring last night, quick and easy since I already took the shock off once as I posted above. Looks like Race Tech info was accurate. I set the preload at 11mm (4mm taken up at installation, 7th click on the ramp = 11mm total) as suggested. Static sag around 10mm and rider sag is 45mm, for exactly 30% of the 150 mm of travel. Right on the money. While just pushing down and bouncing on it in the garage, the movement is much smoother/steadier, it doesn't just "stop" like it does with the stock spring when it hits the high end rate. 5818 spring series is a perfect fit.
I'll post my fork spring swap in another thread (or find one if there already is one).
Motion Pro spring compressor = EASY!
New top bolt, went with hex head instead of socket cap (Allen).
OP
Vintage Veloce
pro rider
Very cool. I like the blue too! What spring weight is that and what do you weight with all your gear?
kkmann
contributing rider
That 10.7 kg/mm (hence the 107 in the number on the spring) or 105N. 210 lbs w/o gear.
OP
Vintage Veloce
pro rider
105N/mm ... The stock spring is claimed to be 100 to 150 N/mm.
That actually looks about right from your pictures as your spring seems to have approximately the same number of coils as the stock one. Assuming the same wire diameter that makes sense. The stock one's rate would increase as the coils bind.
Are you bottoming that new one out? I used 130N/mm and I'm lighter than you.
Very interesting.
That actually looks about right from your pictures as your spring seems to have approximately the same number of coils as the stock one. Assuming the same wire diameter that makes sense. The stock one's rate would increase as the coils bind.
Are you bottoming that new one out? I used 130N/mm and I'm lighter than you.
Very interesting.
kkmann
contributing rider
Not bottoming. At the proper 30% rider sag, I don't expect to at normal riding pace and terrain either. Seems right on the money. Stock spring sag was actually not much different. Problem was it bound up on the very stiff final rate, just like the forks. It feels harsh because the shock just stops reacting smoothly and consistently.
To be honest I thought the 130N spring seemed the quite stiff choice for your weight (aren't you only reporting like 26mm of sag? that would be track bike smooth road stiff). I know geometry matters, but still. For instance my PDS-equipped (same as KTM EXC, etc) Husaberg had the PDS 8 spring which is 8.1-9.9 kg/mm (lets just round to 80-100N), stock is the PDS 7 spring. A lighter motorcycle, but direct action (no linkage) with quite similar geometry (like 70-75 degrees from the swingarm plane?). My direct action Multistrada 1200 is of course a lot heavier and has a 100N spring on Ohlins TTX36 shock, and they came with 85N, and it handles two-up and luggage.
OP
Vintage Veloce
pro rider
We have some rough roads around here and the stock shock & spring was bottoming regularly. The 130N/mm rate was what was recommended to me from a couple sources, and it seemed appropriate given the stock spring went from 100-150.
I do have have it set to less sag than typical, but that was part of my attempt to limit bottoming to only the harshest bumps: I treat the 1/3 of range starting point as just that. And note you don't have a full 142mm of travel the manual says, because there is a fat bump stop in there. I should have fit the shock without the spring and measured it when I had the chance. I'm betting travel available to the bump stop is closer to 100mm.
At any rate, I am pretty happy with it at the moment, but I'd like to be able to try changing the compression damping. ;-)
Just curious, have you actually put a zip tie on the shock shaft to check for bottoming? I figure once every real ride I bottom the shock... that is about what I'd expect I think, otherwise I'm not using all the travel. My roads and riding style may just be different than yours. ;-)
edit: I should note, when I say "bottoming", I mean that I find the zip tie pushed into the rubber bump stop. It might not even feel like a very hard hit, but at that point the suspension is out of its normal/unrestricted operating range.
I do have have it set to less sag than typical, but that was part of my attempt to limit bottoming to only the harshest bumps: I treat the 1/3 of range starting point as just that. And note you don't have a full 142mm of travel the manual says, because there is a fat bump stop in there. I should have fit the shock without the spring and measured it when I had the chance. I'm betting travel available to the bump stop is closer to 100mm.
At any rate, I am pretty happy with it at the moment, but I'd like to be able to try changing the compression damping. ;-)
Just curious, have you actually put a zip tie on the shock shaft to check for bottoming? I figure once every real ride I bottom the shock... that is about what I'd expect I think, otherwise I'm not using all the travel. My roads and riding style may just be different than yours. ;-)
edit: I should note, when I say "bottoming", I mean that I find the zip tie pushed into the rubber bump stop. It might not even feel like a very hard hit, but at that point the suspension is out of its normal/unrestricted operating range.
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kkmann
contributing rider
Nope, don't need a zip tie smashing into the that little rubber stopper. I just about took it off anyway, it's so soft I'd be surprised it does much of anything other than get in the way, plus it just holds dirt and crud so that's another reason I might pitch it.. The shock should probably travel close to the length of the damper rod with no spring. I'm half guessing that what you thought was bottoming was just the shock movement stopping cuz it was just getting so stiff? Maybe the OEM spring rate QC just sucks and you were hitting it a lot. I never felt like mine hit bottom, it was never that impactful (my Monkey bottomed all the time with stock rear shocks, like over a pebble, it hit you in the spine like a hammer and that's through a seat like a Gold Wing, it was bad). The rear suspension travel is stated at 150mm, but that's at the rear axle, not the shock shaft, the shock probably barely moves half that and I think there's quite a bit of travel left under that big rubber bumper. Interestingly that bumper is about three times bigger than the one on my Ducati's Ohlins (which is just a "pad") and honestly I don't recall having bumpers on "most" of my rear shocks anyway.
iam somewhat of happy with seven clicks out & i`am loaded 90kg+
early days i ran the 5 clicks stock setting and were riding over some nearly hidden bump (but i know it well from my friday work escape tours)
i was lifting / hovered my ass a bit as usual^^ & got such a donkey kick from that seat i could feel it for days ...since then i prefer it bit more stiff
early days i ran the 5 clicks stock setting and were riding over some nearly hidden bump (but i know it well from my friday work escape tours)
i was lifting / hovered my ass a bit as usual^^ & got such a donkey kick from that seat i could feel it for days ...since then i prefer it bit more stiff
OP
Vintage Veloce
pro rider
I consider it bottoming whenever my zip tie ends up in the bumper (as pictured above), whether I feel anything or not.
It IS a fat soft bumper! My target is to touch it on sharp bumps occasionally, like I said, maybe once a vigorous ride. It shows I'm using the full travel. But I'm not getting my teeth knocked out or anything. ;-) With the old spring I was getting pretty jarred occasionally. I think now I hit it "appropriately".
The goal of my spring swap was to get rid of the soft initial part of the spring, as I thought that part was too soft. The stock shock seemed to get hard quickly. In my case, I then realized I was hitting both the stiff part of the spring and the bumper too often.
Did you swap your spring because you wanted a softer one?
Like I said, everyone's riding and roads are different. I ride in the city here and it can be really rough. Our streets are notoriously bad, it's one reason I chose the Svart as my urban attack vehicle. Out on the country roads it is much better, except for the occasional cattle grate. And I'd expect to bottom if I run through a cattle grate at speed. (Do you have cattle grates in TN? Be happy if you don't!)
I have ridden some dirt roads, and frankly they tend to be easier than the city, because if it is rough I slow WAY down. In the city the bump is sometimes a surprise.
Just FYI, I used to think the bike had 150mm of travel too, I had read that somewhere, but then I found...
From my 2020 manual
View attachment 930
Says the same thing on the 2021 website.
But IMO the total really doesn't matter, it's just setting it up so you use almost all the travel in regular riding, and surprise big hits are still handled gracefully. And not so little rider sag that you top out the suspension and lose traction. I think. ;-)
I have considered a Nitron NTR R1 shock. I had consulted with them and with my specs on this bike they had recommended a 750lb spring (131N/mm). I figured trying just the spring would be a relatively cheap learning experience.
Removing the bumper is an interesting idea... but I'd want some kind of bumper. And replacing with a thinner one probably requires shock disassembly. I wouldn't want to just bang into the hard end of the travel on a surprising bump.
OP
Vintage Veloce
pro rider
I got another good test ride in today. For street use this spring is just right for me (130 N/mm for my weight, 165 pounds (75kg) with all my gear).
It's also ok on a smooth dirt road, but on rougher roads I easily pounded the zip tie into the bumper (although the bike didn't bottom harshly) when I went over ridges and bumps. If I were going to dual sport the bike I'd definitely need to upgrade the shock so I could adjust the compression damping.
It's also ok on a smooth dirt road, but on rougher roads I easily pounded the zip tie into the bumper (although the bike didn't bottom harshly) when I went over ridges and bumps. If I were going to dual sport the bike I'd definitely need to upgrade the shock so I could adjust the compression damping.