2016 Cycle World, 401s Have Arrived

[GeoKrpan]

How radical they looked in 2016. Some great pics here.

The 2017 Husqvarna 401 Vitpilen And 401 Svartpilen Are Finally Here In Production Form

Husqvarna finally pulls the wraps off their much anticipated 2017 Husqvarna 401 Vitpilen and 401 Svartpilen.

www.cycleworld.com

In 2019 I chose the CB300R over the Vit based on this article. I have a 2022 Vit now and I can tell you that it's better than the CB300R although the CB300R ain't bad.

2018 Cycle World, comparing Vit 401, Duke 390, and CB300R

Honda CB300R, Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, KTM 390 Duke Naked Bike Comparison

We shake down a trio of entry-level naked bikes designed for fun, efficiency, and of course affordability. But which motorcycle reigns supreme?

www.cycleworld.com

 

[papaxris]

@GeoKrpan thanks for sharing the article. I'm sure the Honda is an excellent ride, but the tourqe curve for the 390 motor really shows how special the Duke and the Huskies are.

 

[GeoKrpan]

@GeoKrpan thanks for sharing the article. I'm sure the Honda is an excellent ride, but the tourqe curve for the 390 motor really shows how special the Duke and the Huskies are.

Gosh, a comment, finally. You're welcome. It's the only comparison test I've seen that included the CB300R. In a more recent comparison one of the editors said they asked Honda for a CB300R but Honda declined. It seems as though that's Honda's policy on the CB300R.

Clearly, the 401 is superior to the CB300R. This I know from owning both.

However, the 401 is not appreciably faster or quicker than the CB300R. The 401 has more power but it's geared higher. If the CB was geared similarly it would be a dog. The advantage the 401 has is that second gear is much more usable. 2nd gear is jerky on the CB, makes tight twisty roads a chore. When I owned the CB I should have swapped the front sprocket from a 14 to a 15. It would have cut down top speed but it would have made second gear more usable. I only ride the canyon roads in the vicinity of Malibu, no freeway at all, so top speed is not an issue for me.

The Honda 286cc motor really works well in the CB300R. It's 42 lbs lighter than the Vit 401, 317 vs 359. That's an astonishing feat by Honda using no exotic materials. The Honda also gets 25 miles more per gallon, and, I had zero problems in 15k miles over 3 1/2 years. The Vit 401 is the apple of my eye but the Honda is a good looking bike too.

Pics of my Vit next to my former CB. My bicycling buddy bought it from me and now we ride motos together too.

That's a Rizoma Race Retro bar on the Honda. Husqvarna bar end mirrors in this pic.

 

[papaxris]

Definitely would like to see how the reliability compares to your previous Honda with your new 401. I keep reading mixed reviews about KTM/Husky reliability and I have not seen adequate long term reviews for the 390 motor and associated electronics.

As for:

The Honda 286cc motor really works well in the CB300R. It's 42 lbs lighter than the Vit 401, 317 vs 359. That's an astonishing feat by Honda using no exotic materials. The Honda also gets 25 miles more per gallon, and, I had zero problems in 15k miles over 3 1/2 years. The Vit 401 is the apple of my eye but the Honda is a good looking bike too.

I agree, 42 pounds is definitely a major weight advantage for the Honda. I'm thinking ABS on the 401 adds a weight penalty and possibly because the Honda was Euro 4 compliant.

Looks like for 2022 the Honda became Euro 5 complaint with all the added exhaust modifications. Not sure on the weight of the new Honda now.

2022 Honda CB300R Euro5 Unveiled for Europe

2022 CB300R Euro5 comes after the launch of the BS6 model in India earlier this year. It is coming back after a brief hiatus. Details inside

bikeadvice.in

 

[Liteway]

Sometimes it is difficult to make direct weight comparisons between bikes, due to different methodologies used by the source. I try to go to the same source for different bikes thinking they would use the same methodology, but that is just an assumption.
The Cycleworld test you site shows a 25 lb weight diff, not 42.

Maybe they weighted one with a full tank and the other empty but that seems unlikely.
Where did the 359 figure for the vit come from?
Every thing I see says 150kg (331 lbs) empty tank, not dry weight. Add 15 lbs for 2.5 gal gas and you are at 346, close to Cycle world's 340 figure.

Then again, you have owned both, so perhaps you weighed them yourself, in which case just forget everything I just said.

Later: Oops, Just noticed the Cycle World test was of 2017 Vit which was several kilos lighter than the 2nd gen.

 

[GeoKrpan]

Definitely would like to see how the reliability compares to your previous Honda with your new 401. I keep reading mixed reviews about KTM/Husky reliability and I have not seen adequate long term reviews for the 390 motor and associated electronics.

As for:


I agree, 42 pounds is definitely a major weight advantage for the Honda. I'm thinking ABS on the 401 adds a weight penalty and possibly because the Honda was Euro 4 compliant.

Looks like for 2022 the Honda became Euro 5 complaint with all the added exhaust modifications. Not sure on the weight of the new Honda now.

2022 Honda CB300R Euro5 Unveiled for Europe

2022 CB300R Euro5 comes after the launch of the BS6 model in India earlier this year. It is coming back after a brief hiatus. Details inside

bikeadvice.in

Back in 2019 Honda offered the CB300R with or without ABS. I believe the non-ABS model was 5 lbs lighter, 312 vs 317 for the ABS model. The non-ABS models were the first to arrive at the dealerships. I had my choice of getting a non-ABS model or wait, I waited. When I posted my first comment on ADVRider about my purchase someone made a comment that I had a "rare" ABS model. Honda no longer offers the non-ABS model. In 2019 ABS was $300 more, $4949 vs $4649 for the non-ABS model. The price of the 2023 CB300R is $5049, the 2023 Vitpilen 401 $5699, now $650 more, but worth it. The price difference of the 2022s was only $350. I paid $600 over list for my Vit but the markup on a CB300R would have been the same or more. The dealer I bought the Vit from is also a Honda dealer. They had no CB300Rs in stock at the time I bought my Vit.

I have no idea what Euro 5 adds to weight but I doubt if it accounts for much of the weight difference between the CB300R and the Vit 401. I reckon the approximately 40% more power of the Vit requires a heavier, stronger frame and components. But don't dismiss the engineering prowess of Honda. Ha, I just checked the Honda website. The weight of the 2023 CB300R is 316 lbs, 1 pound lighter. Many times curb weights aren't listed on manufacturers sites. But Honda really has something to crow about with the weight of the CB300R.

It's ok, in some situations a little extra weight is a good thing such as in windy conditions. I don't really notice the extra weight of the Vit. In fact, it handles better than the CB300R on the tight, twisty roads that I frequent. I attribute that to two main factors. The superior riding position and to the superior gearing. The seat is much higher and the handlebars lower. This puts me in the attack position. As I said, 2nd gear is way more usable and there are many 2nd gear curves where I ride. The superior suspension also helps. Many of the roads that I ride see little traffic and can go a long time between repavings. The bumps can throw you off your line. The larger displacement with more compression braking helps on steep, bumpy, tight, twisty downhills as does the stronger brakes.

Nothing beats a Honda for reliability and low cost of ownership. I'm expecting the cost of ownership of the Vit to be more expensive and have my fingers crossed on reliability.

Sorry for the verbose comment. It's raining and if it rains I'm stuck in the house, lol.

 

[GeoKrpan]

Sometimes it is difficult to make direct weight comparisons between bikes, due to different methodologies used by the source. I try to go to the same source for different bikes thinking they would use the same methodology, but that is just an assumption.
The Cycleworld test you site shows a 25 lb weight diff, not 42.

Maybe they weighted one with a full tank and the other empty but that seems unlikely.
Where did the 359 figure for the vit come from?
Every thing I see says 150kg (331 lbs) empty tank, not dry weight. Add 15 lbs for 2.5 gal gas and you are at 346, close to Cycle world's 340 figure.

Then again, you have owned both, so perhaps you weighed them yourself, in which case just forget everything I just said.

I got the 359 number here, a comparison test from about a year ago. The weight listed for the 2023 Vitpilen 401 on the Husqvarna site is 151kg, 332 lbs, most likely dry weight. 15 lbs of fuel would make it 347. I reckon Motorcycle.com actually weighed the bike to publish that figure. PS Husqvarna lists the 2023 Svartpilen 401 to be 1 kg heavier than the 2023 Vitpilen 401, 152kg vs 151kg.

Honda, on their site, clearly says wet weight. I've not seen anything conflicting this. Although you won't find a CB300R in a comparison test there are reviews of it singly.

I would like to believe the Vit is lighter than 359 but I really don't think it is and I really don't care. I love my Vit!

https://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/2021-lightweight-naked-bike-shootout-smackdown-comparo-review

 

[Liteway]

Cool. Thanks for the link. But I would like to see what a 300r weighs on their scales. Buy the way, that's a Swart, a couple of kilos heavier that the Vit.

The dino. results are disturbing. The Svart made 7 less hp compared to the Duke at 7600 rpm where it counts most though they supposedly use the same engine. Flatter, meatier h.p. curve all the way. That is a huge diff for a 373cc engine. Something wrong with that Svart?
If the results are repeatable, wish I had bought a Duke.

 

[GeoKrpan]

Cool. Thanks for the link. But I would like to see what a 300r weighs on their scales. Buy the way, that's a Swart, a couple of kilos heavier that the Vit.

The dino. results are disturbing. The Svart made 7 less hp compared to the Duke at 7600 rpm where it counts most though they supposedly use the same engine. Flatter, meatier h.p. curve all the way. That is a huge diff for a 373cc engine. Something wrong with that Svart?
If the results are repeatable, wish I had bought a Duke.

You are reading that chart to say 32.9 hp for the Vit when actually I think it says 37.9, 2 less hp, makes more sense.

I've seen other reviews say that the Vit is tuned differently than the Duke and that the Duke throttle response is more immediate. That could or could not be a good thing. No way I'd choose the Duke over a 401. Looks ARE important.

On my CB300R I installed a quick turn throttle tube from a Honda Monkey. It had a 125% ratio compared to the stock throttle tube. It definitely changed the perception of it's quickness. Some new motorcycles have a choice of modes for the throttle, rain, street, sport, etc. That's sort of the same thing as throttle tubes with different ratios. I thought of doing the same thing I did to the Honda, to the Vit, a quick turn throttle tube, but how do you do that with ride by wire, you can't.

Husqvarna lists the 2023 Svartpilen 401 to be 1 kg heavier than the 2023 Vitpilen 401, 152kg vs 151kg.

 

[Liteway]

No. Look at the curves directly above 7600 rpm which is more relevant than peaks near reline, as that is the meat of the common hard acceleration range.
35 for the KTM, 28 for the Svart, a whopping 20% difference. The Duke makes 4 to 7 hp more all the way between 6500 to 9000 rpm, The gap does not close to 2 hp until you reach 9200rpm. Most of us do not spend much time up there at the very top end of the rev range.
I would be shocked if I could not feel that difference through the seat of my pants.

Yes, IMO the Svart is way better looking and the reason I chose it over the Duke, but now I wish I would have given the Duke a test. And they do look better on the showroom floor than they do in photos.

 

[GeoKrpan]

No. Look at the curves directly above 7600 rpm which is more relevant than peaks near reline, as that is the meat of the common hard acceleration range.
35 for the KTM, 28 for the Svart, a whopping 20% difference. The Duke makes 4 to 7 hp more all the way between 6500 to 9000 rpm, The gap does not close to 2 hp until you reach 9200rpm. Most of us do not spend much time up there at the very top end of the rev range.
I would be shocked if I could not feel that difference through the seat of my pants.

Yes, IMO the Svart is way better looking and the reason I chose it over the Duke, but now I wish I would have given the Duke a test. And they do look better on the showroom floor than they do in photos.

Dyno charts from the 2016 Cycle World comparison.

Perhaps Motorcycle.com got a glitchy 401.

Feel better about not having a Duke 390?

Vitpilen 401

Duke 390

 

[GeoKrpan]

No. Look at the curves directly above 7600 rpm which is more relevant than peaks near reline, as that is the meat of the common hard acceleration range.
35 for the KTM, 28 for the Svart, a whopping 20% difference. The Duke makes 4 to 7 hp more all the way between 6500 to 9000 rpm, The gap does not close to 2 hp until you reach 9200rpm. Most of us do not spend much time up there at the very top end of the rev range.
I would be shocked if I could not feel that difference through the seat of my pants.

Yes, IMO the Svart is way better looking and the reason I chose it over the Duke, but now I wish I would have given the Duke a test. And they do look better on the showroom floor than they do in photos.

Conclusions reached in the 2016 Cycle World article.

Regarding the Vitpilen 401 verses the Duke 390. As I said earlier the Duke's throttle response is different and may or not be a good thing.

"In contrast, the shared 373cc singles belt out nearly identical power numbers on the Cycle World dyno. The 401 ekes out the KTM in terms of horsepower, but the Duke has a 0.5 pound-feet advantage in torque. Throttle and engine response are also sharper and more pronounced feeling—not necessarily a happy attribute, especially in a new rider’s hands. However, more experienced folks will likely appreciate the engine’s punchier feel."

Regarding the CB300R. In the real world the Honda does just fine. I echo this sentiment from having owned one.

“Both Euro bikes are snappier, and happier to loft the front wheel, but it’s easy to appreciate the smoothness of Honda’s mill and its excellent six-speed transmission,” Cantle explains. “The Honda’s weight savings are evident, it has no trouble keeping up with the bigger 373cc bikes. I have to give a nod to the sportier motors in this group though. There’s more drama—and more entertainment value—in the Austrian engines. Getting on and off the throttle seems like an event; there’s intake racket and clatter, and with entry-level bikes, a little rudeness is a welcome attribute. No matter which machine you choose, you’re going to be wringing it out to keep up with traffic.”

 

[Liteway]

I think they changed the tuning in 2020, Euro 4/5. Exhaust changes, among others. They still rate them the same, but once again that is peak horsepower and says nothing about changes farther down the curve. Maybe they lost it then.
I think I should have found a first gen Svart with nicer looking wheels and gloss paint. I do not find the jerky quick shifter to be all that helpful beyond the normal lift throttle clutchless shifting I have always done.
And a lot more ground clearance without all that crap on the bottom of the engine.

 

[GeoKrpan]

I think they changed the tuning in 2020, Euro 4/5. Exhaust changes, among others. They still rate them the same, but once again that is peak horsepower and says nothing about changes farther down the curve. Maybe they lost it then.
I think I should have found a first gen Svart with nicer looking wheels and gloss paint. I do not find the jerky quick shifter to be all that helpful beyond the normal lift throttle clutchless shifting I have always done.
And a lot more ground clearance without all that crap on the bottom of the engine.

I think it's more likely that Motorcycle.com got a glitchy 401 than any differences other than minor tuning between the Duke and 401 motors. The horsepower curve in the Motorcycle.com dyno chart for the 401 even looks erratic.
However no erratic behavior in 401s throttle response was noted by the road testers.

I love the quick shifter and I think the 2022 Vitpilen is the best looking yet. Lengthening of the tail section and the addition of the grab rail really did improve the looks although perhaps remove some of the radicalness of the design.
The 2016 Cycle World article finds fault with the fit and finish of the 401. When I went down to see one in 2019 I had the same feeling. Back then the Honda was clearly superior but now they are totally on par and I don't think it's because Honda has let their quality slip.

Thank you for the great discussion.

 

[Lozion]

Having owned all three following versions:

-2018 Vit
-2020 Duke
-2020 Svart

I can you tell my Svart feels less powerful then the Duke I rode last summer.
I was so surprised that I felt maybe the previous owner somehow garbled the cylinder but seeing @Liteway 's chart explains it for me..

 

[GeoKrpan]

Having owned all three following versions:

-2018 Vit
-2020 Duke
-2020 Svart

I can you tell my Svart feels less powerful then the Duke I rode last summer.
I was so surprised that I felt maybe the previous owner somehow garbled the cylinder but seeing @Liteway 's chart explains it for me..

Not arguing, but the above 2016 Cycle World dyno charts are pretty close to each other.

 

[Liteway]

In 2020 the bikes were completely retuned and exhausts modified to meet Euro 5 standards for less noise and fewer emissions. These were major factors in the need for a second gen. Likely this required compromises less than optimal from a performance standpoint.
That would seem to me to make the 2017 graphs irrelevant to us riding 2020+ models as opposed to the 2021 graphs.

Anyway, it is also hard to understand why Svart power would be more affected by Euro 5 than Duke power.
As you said earlier, could have been a glitch example of the Svart...... Or not. Published info seems too spotty be sure either way.

 

[GeoKrpan]

In 2020 the bikes were completely retuned and exhausts modified to meet Euro 5 standards for less noise and fewer emissions. These were major factors in the need for a second gen. Likely this required compromises less than optimal from a performance standpoint.
That would seem to me to make the 2017 graphs irrelevant to us riding 2020+ models as opposed to the 2021 graphs.

Anyway, it is also hard to understand why Svart power would be more affected by Euro 5 than Duke power.
As you said earlier, could have been a glitch example of the Svart...... Or not. Published info seems too spotty be sure either way.

I guess the best thing to do is to find some more dyno charts from other publications.

Right, it's hard to understand why Svart power would be more affected by Euro 5 than Duke power.